Is Coaching the Key to Lights-Out Success? Ep #16

[0:00] Nick Goellner: Welcome to the Lights Out Podcast. It’s me, Nick Goldner, who is looking really pink today. I look like a newborn baby that just came out and we can’t figure out why we’ve been messing with the, uh, camera settings. So we’re just, we’re just gonna go. We have editors for a reason. Maybe they can make me not pink, actually.

[0:20] Lemme, lemme, how about that? Not as pink. Yes. Less pink for sure. At works.

[0:30] Jen Dubose: Guys. Guys, it just hit me. We don’t do video for this podcast. Oh really? It’s, it’s audio only. Oh

[0:40] Nick Goellner: yeah. That’s why we have Jen. So this is actually only recording audio. Man. I put a shirt on for this. I could have just, I didn’t know we were, what the heck?

I thought we were on video, but I was like, okay, well in that case,

[0:50] Mike Payne: hey, metal Working Nation. I don’t think it’s any secret that I like. Numbers. Started a whole podcast called Buy the Numbers to talk about numbers. That’s why I’m telling you, if you wanna know how your shop really stacks up, you need to take the Modern Machine Shop, top Shop survey.

[1:10] It’s your chance to get a customized benchmarking report that shows exactly where your shop stands and where you can improve. I’ve done this for seven years now. It’s a crucial part of my business cycle. Tells me where I’m at, where I can improve. And where the industry is going next. Plus, you could earn top shops recognition.

[1:30] Proving your shop’s one of the best in the business. Don’t guess, let the numbers tell the story. Take the survey today@mmsonline.com. That’s Modern Machine Shop’s website, MMS online.com.

[1:40] Narrator: Talent is scarce experience, even more so driving a cost in sleepless nights. You may even think to yourself, can I do this?

[1:50] But this new era brings new technology and a different perspective on your operations. What you will hear will turn on a light bulb in your mind so you can turn out the lights in your shop. Get ready to sleep soundly while your shop never stops. Get ready for making chips. Lights out with your hosts, Nick Goner and Caleb Mertz.

[2:30] Nick Goellner: So the guest today. Dave, don’t call me Buick. Buick. That’s how you say it. VUYK. That’s the nickname I had in high school. Exactly. Yep. And instead of doing like a big, long bio where I try to say everything that you’ve done so far, we’ll start with your origin story. That’s how I like to start with these things.

[2:50] So how did you get involved in manufacturing? What are you doing today? Take us back to like the beginning. The actual beginning of the beginning. Not when you just came out of the womb and looked as pink as I do. But you know, the beginning of your. Career in metal working nation.

David Vuyk: Yeah. Thanks for clarifying.

’cause I was gonna, I was gonna go way back.

Nick Goellner: Yeah. Like,

David Vuyk: okay. So my dad and my mom,

[3:10] Nick Goellner: you know, they lit some candles.

[3:20] David Vuyk: So post-secondary education for me was in mechanical engineering technology and where I ended up right outta school. Was as a mechanical designer in the industrial automation industry. Of course, you know, fresh outta school you’re pretty green.

[3:30] I was designing systems and bringing part drawings down into the shop floor, uh, so that they could be made. And I don’t mind saying I had my butt handed to me pretty quickly by all those guys who are looking at how poorly annotated those wrongs were, uh, mercifully. They were nice enough to steer me in the right direction, but really just building that.

[4:00] Relationship with the shop floor. So right outta college you started working for a manufacturer? Yep, that’s right. Uh, steel, steel banding equipment, uh, for, for steel coils. You know, US Steel was, was one of our big customers. And so that kind of opened my eyes that like, hey, you know, you come outta the.

[4:20] Ivory tower of the engineering office and down to the shop floor, and they’ve got these really cool machines down there. Um, so that started to kind of open my eyes to CNC machining. So I, while I was still a mechanical designer, I went all in, uh, bought myself a, ha’s mini mill. My father-in-law was kind enough to let me shoehorn that into his, uh, his barn and started a little side hustle business, teaching myself how to run parts.

[4:40] Watching a lot of YouTube, going on forums, figuring it out as I went along, that eventually came to a point where I kind of merged those operations with someone who I knew who, who had a shop in the area, became their operations manager for a number of years in, in their job shop. It was

Nick Goellner: just a contract manufacturer.

[5:00] David Vuyk: Um, yeah, J job shop work for a bunch of different industries, A lot for the food and beverage industry, alternative energies, agriculture. Um, and that was really a great experience both in terms of learning a lot about subtractive manufacturing, but also learning a lot about the business of manufacturing as well.

Because you said, you said you were the, uh, operations

Nick Goellner: manager. That was the title.

[5:20] David Vuyk: Yeah, that, I mean, that’s the title. It was a small team. So what that really means is that you, you, you wear a lot of different hats and you also have the privilege of cleaning the toilet and mopping the floor and, and all those other things go along with it.

[5:40] How small was the team? Was it just three of you? Four of you? Yeah, initially there was just four of us. We grew it to about six people. Um, nice, nice little shop.

Nick Goellner: Nice.

[5:50] David Vuyk: And yeah, over the course of, of that time, you know, really enjoyed kind of putting the systems in place, both operationally, but also from a sales and marketing perspective to kind of grow the customer base and, uh, get into, uh, into some new, new markets.

[6:00] One of the things that we did. While we were there, as we invested in Pro Shop ERP, which, uh, kind of brings some things full circle with Paul, uh, being on the, making chips and, and being a partner.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.

[6:10] David Vuyk: When I ended up parting ways with the job shop, Paul rang me up and kind of said, Hey, you know what?

[6:20] You, you, uh, you know what you’re talking about. We’d love to have you on the team. Would you consider joining? And one thing led to another and I, I joined ProShop. And that really kind of. Got me into the software side of manufacturing, uh, which frankly is not something that I really expected. I’m kind of more of a hands-on guy, boots on the ground guy, uh, in a lot of ways.

[6:40] But it’s been a, a really enjoyable and, and eye-opening thing to kind of be serving the industry from, from that perspective. And kind of learning along the way. Uh, so today I am, I am a technical pre-sales and customer success engineer with Cloud nc, and so Cam Automation is, is where I’m focused now.

Nick Goellner: And

David Vuyk: yeah, they’ve been

Nick Goellner: on making chips before.

[7:00] I’m assuming a lot of our audience also listens to the Flagship Making Chips podcast. And yeah, if you go all the way back. To IMTS. We had your founder, Theo, on the pod, and he got to explain a bit about Cloud NC and exactly what that is and, and I’m sure we’ll get into that too. So that’s, that’s full circle.

[7:20] So, uh, steel banding equipment, then a job shop. Then it was like, Hey, I get how job shops work. Paul, who you were using Pro shop. Paul’s like, yeah. Uh. We want people who get how job shops work, why don’t you come work for me? And then from there, now you’re in like a really, really bleeding edge. You know, everyone’s talking about this type of tech where it’s kind of automating the cam and basically like what?

[7:50] You upload a model and it spits out a program that’s. Pretty close to being what you need to be able to make parts. And that’s, that’s what you’re doing at Cloud nc, huh?

[8:00] David Vuyk: Yep. So, I mean, it’s an exciting new technology. It’s, it’s developing really, really fast, uh, getting better all the time. But, uh, if I think back to the job shop days, you know, it’s like, man, it would’ve been really nice to have that tool available, uh, just to get the spindles utilized a bit better and, uh, mm-hmm.

[8:10] So it’s cool having that experience kind in my back pocket as we’re serving customers today, uh, just to be able to. Empathize with where they’re at and, and, uh, understand really the, the problems that they’re, they’re trying to solve.

Nick Goellner: Was that a bottleneck for you at the job shop? Was that one of your constraints is programming?

[8:30] David Vuyk: Yeah. No, it’s a, it’s a high mix, high mix, low volume environment. You know, our typical run size was 10 to 20 parts. So yeah, you’re, you’re setting up and tearing down several times a day to try and, and utilize those machines as much as you can. Um, so anything that would kind of simplify that process and, and have those, uh, programs machine ready a little quicker, uh, would be huge for us.

[9:00] Nick Goellner: So you’ve done a lot of different things. You kinda remind me of, uh, Caleb over here, like a little bit of engineering, a little bit of like management. I mean, back when making chips was an agency, Caleb was like kind of the operations manager of the agency for the few years that we did that. And then, yeah, Caleb, then you were in automation design and then now you’re like product manager kind of.

[9:20] Business unit leadership and both of you guys had some marketing mixed in there too, where, you know, Dave, you were talking about marketing a bit. So yeah, just Caleb, what I mean, what do you think about being as well-rounded as you are at however old you are? Like 30 years old and

Kaleb Mertz: I mean, I think it’s fun.

[9:40] That’s why I know David and I are gonna get along just fine because, uh, yeah, I mean it when you’re. I think that’s how you can bring different things together, right? Is like if you have experience in all those areas. And I know Dave, you mentioned like you’re kind of more of the boots on the ground type of guy.

[10:00] And so, you know, I’ve, I’ve gotten in some of those roles where, you know, I’ve been in, in a shop let’s say. And in my role in that case was, you know, maybe more on the sales side or, or something, you know, marketing related. And uh, you get those looks of like. Like, oh, this guy, you know, he’s from the outside, doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

[10:20] Stuff like that, right? And um, and I’m like, um, like, yeah, there’s a lot I have to learn. And, you know, there, there’s a lot I haven’t done. But then at the same time I’m like, no, but I love what you’re doing. And I like, like I wanna do, I do the same thing, like, but on my end I used to program robots and vision systems and stuff like that.

[10:30] So, so I think that’s really fun. But yeah, I mean, I, I mean, what I would ask is something that I always kind of have to think through a lot and. And, uh, I have my own ways of going about this, but you know, what kind of o objections do you see as you’re, like you said you’re kinda more that boots on the ground person, so you can relate to that.

[10:50] So, you know, even in that facility that you started with, um, you know, what would the objections have been if they weren’t, uh, there at the time when you were there?

[11:00] David Vuyk: Uh, objections in terms of o adopting new technologies or, or changing their process?

Kaleb Mertz: Yeah. In regards to, yeah, exactly. ’cause where, where you’re at now with Cloud mc,

Nick Goellner: like something like Cloud mc, like what do you mean?

[11:10] I’m gonna upload CAD and get a program? Like how, how I don’t believe that works.

[11:20] David Vuyk: Yeah. No, it’s, it’s interesting right? Because I’ve been on, on both sides of the table. In fact, when we were implementing Pro Shop, I’m sure I was probably a lot to handle for, uh, my onboarding specialist that I had there, just because.

[11:30] Anytime that you’re changing the way people work, there’s, there’s gonna be some resistance there. And I, I remember full well being like, you want me to do it that way? Like, are you, are you crazy? And so, you know, I, it really under underscores the importance of having a kind of a change management and a coaching focus on how you’re working through that with your team.

[12:00] Right. So if I’m mm-hmm. If I’m the leader and I really think we should invest in. Uh, a new ERP system or something like canvassy from cloud nc, you know, being very communicative with the team and to get their buy-in to under, help them understand why this is important, right? And at the end of the day, there needs to be an open-mindedness to, to change the way you work and a, a desire to improve how the business functions, right?

[12:20] And when that. Is successful, everybody wins, right? Mm-hmm. Maybe the, maybe the schedule is a little easier to manage. You’re not, you know, going around firefighting all day long. Maybe the bottom line is impacted in a big way that everyone gets a nice Christmas bonus, uh, whatever. So when you have the team on the same page, Rowan, in the same direction, uh, it really helps with that.

That onboarding process, that change that’s happening operationally as you’re bringing on new technologies?

[12:50] Nick Goellner: Yeah, and that’s, that’s really gonna be, I think, the focus of what we talk about today. Everything we do has to equip and inspire leaders, you know, how to better run their company. And then with this podcast, it’s usually some sort of technology or automation focus.

[13:10] So with, you know, everything you just said, it’s like. If you’re trying to sell a new technology, a disruptive technology into a shop, you really need to think like the business owner. But you can’t only think like the business owner because if you don’t get adoption at the, with the frontline workers who are actually gonna be using it and changing the way they think and changing the way they work.

[13:30] It’s usually not enough just to have the business owner on board and if, if it is enough to, you know, sell the solution, the long-term growth with that account is probably gonna suffer if you don’t get everyone bought in. You know, you might get that first order from someone who’s like, yeah, I want to be this way, but you, you’re not gonna get.

Scalability within that account.

[13:50] David Vuyk: Not only that, you might win over the business owner and they might even go ahead and make the purchase, but then now you’re risking the opportunity churning because the rest of the team wasn’t bought in. They’re not working hard to make it. A win and, and they’re, they’re not getting the best outta that solution as a result.

Right. So for churn, you mean like they unsubscribe

Nick Goellner: and stop using it? That’s right.

[14:10] David Vuyk: Yeah, that’s right. They don’t renew, uh, whatever the case is. They come back to you and say, yeah, we never really got a lot of value out of it. The guys never really used it, and possibly in the process, you know, they’ve got a bad taste in their mouth about.

[14:30] You know, the experience they had with your brand, uh, which obviously, uh, isn’t ideal. So I, I think the lesson there for software companies in the manufacturing space is just to be. Kind of fanatical about customer success and, and giving them the best start and, and an ongoing support with, with that product.

[14:40] Whether that’s like machine monitoring or ERP or CAM solutions or anything like that. Um, even, even, you know, shop floor hardware and not just software.

[15:00] Nick Goellner: Yeah. So you said customer success, and I don’t even think we ended up saying it when I introduced you, but that’s your role with Cloud NC is what’s, that’s the title exactly.

[15:10] David Vuyk: Yeah. I don’t think I’ve ever, uh, had a longer title. Uh, it’s a bit of a mouthful. Uh, technical pre-sales and customer success Engineer. And what that just means is that I’m supporting things both from the, the both. Pre-sale and post-sale perspective. Uh, so I’m helping them understand the product before they make the purchase, make sure it’s a good fit, make sure it aligns with, uh, the pain points that they’re trying to solve.

[15:30] And then after the sale’s made, uh, supporting them through the onboarding process and and beyond.

[15:40] Nick Goellner: Yeah, so if we gave Caleb a title that fit what he actually does, it would be like, just as long, like business development leader and internal. Sales operations manager and automation integrator. Assistant to the general manager.

Yes.

Speaker 7: Can’t forget that.

[16:00] Kaleb Mertz: Can’t forget that. Oh yeah. To your point though, like, so j just today, this is actually good timing. ’cause just today we’re, I, I’m working on an automation project internally that’s, you know, it will entail some software but also like, you know, physical loading of a, of a machine. And I, I’m out there working with two of our engineers on this and then, uh, two of the operators I know come up.

[16:20] And we started having conversation and they’re giving all this feedback and it, it’s amazing conversation. And, uh, I kind of started framing it like. You know, they knew we were okay on this project. And I started framing it like, you guys are so valuable to us, that we want you to be trained up on higher levels of technology.

[16:30] Uh, you know, we want you to engage on these areas, have the capacity to train in other areas, you know, not load these parts. Right. And it was actually really cool. They were. They were so, they were like, whoa. He just said we’re valuable. Like, that’s awesome. Like that’s kinda how they reacted. Yeah. And I was like, I was like, wait, like you should know that.

[16:50] You don’t know that. How valuable. Yes. Yeah. Like, like to me that’s so obvious. And I think sometimes we don’t always like show that well, uh, on the plant floor level necessarily. But anyway, to, to your point, it’s like, I think what you were saying before is like. A lot of those objections or anything towards any type of technology like that are gonna come at that level.

[17:10] So even if the people you’re engaging with are bought in, uh, it’s gotta go a lot deeper than that.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.

[17:20] Kaleb Mertz: And so do, do you, do you engage, like is it part of your process to also engage with like, who do you engage with and how you, how do you engage with them? I guess that’s why I’m kind of curious, like, do you kind of set up plans with the, uh, decision makers on this is how to speak about this to your employees?

Or how, how do you kind of handle that?

[17:30] Nick Goellner: Yeah. Like train the trainer almost. Yeah. Yeah.

[17:40] David Vuyk: Yeah. So, I mean, how would I say it? On, on the pre-sale side of things, we’re, we’re trying to set the table to really understand what the goals of the project are. What are the success criteria? How, how do we know if we have succeeded, right?

[17:50] How do we know if that problem’s been resolved? And so that’s kind of when that starts coming together. And then on the, on the onboarding side, after the sales happened. Having a bit of a structured onboarding process, but then checking in, uh, making sure that those success criteria are being met, not just once or twice during the first couple weeks of, of onboarding, but on an ongoing basis and being really receptive to what their experience is.

[18:20] Right. So what’s great about. You know, soliciting feedback from your customers is it can give you a bit of a roadmap on where you need to improve your products, improve your process, make things better for customers in the future, and really just kind of evolving your, your method as you, as you go and as you learn from that.

[18:30] Nick Goellner: Yeah, I, I think Caleb’s question has something rattling around in my mind, because it’s. It’s automation, I mean, it’s you. What you’re doing is automating the, like a digital process and we’re usually automating, like loading and unloading a machine. But how do you deal with that dynamic from a programmer, for example, who might think, okay, if we start using this, what do I do?

[19:00] Like that was my job. And kinda like what Caleb said about, you know, we have some guys in our shop and it’s like, no, we want you to be doing something higher level than what you’re doing right now. So is. Is that something that you have to be aware of and kind of like coach your coach, the managers of your customers so that they’re not being a threat to someone’s job?

[19:20] David Vuyk: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it’s, it’s, I think it’s wise to be pretty sensitive to the fact that a lot of people will naturally look at a technology like that and think, oh boy, my job’s being replaced. Right? And, and where does that leave me? And really taking that and trying to reframe it from the perspective of, no, this is a technology that’s, that’s going to elevate you and elevate the team so that you’re more successful.

[19:50] And so that means that what you’re able to contribute to the business and to the bottom line is gonna be amplified by this technology that’s gonna make you more valuable as. You know, to your employer, but even just more broadly on the open market as a manufacturing professional. And I think that’s, that’s a lot more compelling than, oh man, this is gonna make me, you know, useless to my employer.

[20:10] Or, or, you know, they don’t need me anymore. So I think it’s having those conversations and, and. First of all, hearing people out, but then being able to reframe that in a more constructive way so that they’re buying in and, and realize that no, this is actually, this is good for the individual on the shop floor and, and it’s good for everyone else who’s involved.

[20:30] Nick Goellner: I think the individual on the shop floor that is hesitant or, or fearful of adopting a new technology, whatever it is, some form of automation or tech that they feel like might replace them, it. Can replace them and it can become this self-fulfilling prophecy if they’re overly resistant to it, if they’re digging their heels in, if they don’t wanna adopt it.

[20:50] Like they can make that true by how they receive it and how they act about it. ’cause Yeah, in a lot of ways, like it is, I. Taking a lot of the tasks that this person did or was supposed to do, and streamlining that. Sure. And so you could think of it as like, I can learn how to use this tool, or I can be mad that the tool does what I did faster or more efficiently or whatever.

And if you. Take the latter approach. Like it might, it may replace you if you take the former approach, you’ve now elevated.

[21:20] David Vuyk: Yeah. You know what, there’s an onus on the individual to embrace that opportunity. Right, and and like you say, they could just as easily not, and stick their head in the ground and then Yeah, then that might become a self-fulfilling prophecy where they’re not needed anymore because they didn’t wanna change with the technology.

[21:40] That’s possible. By and large. I haven’t really seen that, but, you know, it, it’s, it’s kind of like the recent AI boom. You know, something that I used to do in, in a product marketing role was creating content, writing, technical writing and stuff like this. Well, a lot of that has changed in the last few years.

Speaker 7: Yeah.

[22:00] David Vuyk: Um, and, and for me it’s like I could either. Say, well, it was a good run doing technical writing, but that’s it. AI’s got it, uh, under control now. Uh, or I could embrace it and see it that as a way that I can kind of amplify what I’m able to do and how I’m able to help manufacturers with that skillset.

So,

Speaker 7: mm-hmm.

[22:20] David Vuyk: Same would, would be true for, for any kind of a manufacturing software that, that kind of works, um, in conjunction, uh, with that person on the shop floor.

Speaker 7: Yeah,

David Vuyk: such a good point.

[22:30] Nick Goellner: So when you start with, you know, someone, so you’re pre-sales too, so someone’s a lead at, at when you get introduced to them, right?

[22:40] And, and when you start, do you guys have kind of like I. A system or a process, or do you recommend a certain kind of like phased approach to customer success? Or is it just like, Hey, how can I help you be successful and then you figure it out from there?

David Vuyk: Well, I mean, by and large, I think people hear about, I.

[23:00] AI cam programming, and there’s a lot of questions around that. Like what does that really mean? A lot of people, right, rightly suspect that, well, I can’t make a perfect CAM program right off the bat. It’s like, no, that’s definitely true, but it’s hard to know just from hearing about it, like to what degree is it gonna automate the process?

[23:20] And so there’s folks who come to us because there’s, they are curious and there’s also folks who come because, Hey, listen, the. Labor gap, the, the skills shortage. We can’t find programmers. This seems like something that can help us with that problem. And so there’s a a definite pain point that we’re gonna be responding to in that case.

[23:40] And so. Uh, it really just depends on the situation. When there’s a, a more definite pain point, that’s always better because, you know, that’s a specific problem that we can solve and create success criteria around there’s a business outcome there that’s going to improve. Some people, you know, they come, they, we show them how it works and it’s like, Hey, that’s, that’s great to know and we might well want to use that in the future, but not right now.

[24:00] And that’s, that’s fine too. So there’s, there’s a chunk of what we’re doing. I would say that is kind of just educating the market with where that technology is at, uh, so that they can prepare themselves accordingly. Right? Um, you might see that in the world of hardware automation and, and work holding where there’s you, you only know what you know.

[24:20] And if you’re a shop that’s just used to running, you know, verticals with a single Curt vice in the middle, and that’s your world, right? Oh, don’t, don’t even speak such

Nick Goellner: evils.

[24:30] David Vuyk: Yeah. Well, exactly. Now you’re speaking our language. Yeah. Perhaps you guys relate to that a little bit in the sense that we

Nick Goellner: call it a dinosaur vice.

[24:40] Yeah. Because, uh, it’s big, it’s heavy. It takes up too much space, and someday they’re gonna go extinct. You know, you’ve got this huge table and you got this like one little work piece inside of one vice. What the hell are you doing? You wasted your money.

[24:50] David Vuyk: And, and so I think the, the point I’m trying to make there is sometimes people know that they could be doing some things better.

[25:00] They just don’t know how or what the solution is yet. And so then there’s that Yeah. Part where you kind of come alongside them to educate them on what that might be.

[25:10] Mike Payne: Manufacturers, what is your biggest headache? Is it measuring, improving profitability, gaining efficiencies with AI and automation? Maybe tightening up your cybersecurity, maybe getting your business ready to sell At CLA, their goal is to know you and help you with challenges like these and more every day.

[25:30] CLA helps manufacturers tap into millions in revenue and cost savings, like one manufacturer that boosted capacity and revenues by 15 to 20%. Visit c connect.com to hear real success stories and learn how you can grow. Your top and bottom line.

Kaleb Mertz: And a lot of times too, it’s, it’s like I have all this knowledge, or my team has all this know, you know, years of experience.

[25:50] So it’s like, it, it’s, it’s hard to let go of that. And, and that makes sense, but I think it’s also for people to understand that you, you’re not letting go of that. It’s, you’re using that knowledge more wisely. Right. So. You know, if, if you use software, for example, to get to a quote, a, a, a finished quote quicker, um, you still need your understanding and knowledge to be able to double check what went through and like, make sure, do a gut check on these values, right?

[26:20] Like you’re not just gonna run it through and then say, okay, and it automatically sends to the customer. You know, it could, you could do that maybe with some like lower level parts, but in general you’re gonna go through that. And so that knowledge is. Is necessary, but now you’re getting through three, four times the amount that you would without it.

[26:30] Right. So, yeah, I think it’s, it’s a, it’s a yes and approach with a lot of it.

Nick Goellner: Yeah.

David Vuyk: Great. Great point. I’d agree with that.

[26:40] Nick Goellner: Yeah. Super, super good point. And it’s like what Dave said about writing, you know, I. I write my, the business reports that we work on, Caleb, like chat GPTs actually constructing most of the sentences and paragraphs and stuff.

[26:50] Yeah. But they’re still my thoughts like, and I still exactly have to go fix it. ’cause it’ll have some ideas like, how’d you get that one? That’s not what I wanted to you to do. And for Dave, you do a lot of, well, we’ll get there now actually, I want to talk a bit about one of the other skills you have one of the other hats that you wear, but you do a lot of like messaging and writing and kinda.

[27:10] It’s a huge part of customer success Coaching too, is like how you communicate, and so let’s just dive right into that. So for those that don’t know. We have higher mfg leaders.com. It’s because what Caleb and I have found, what our everyone at my company has found is the DIY approach to recruiting. By putting something out on Indeed and like going fishing without a fishing guide, you don’t catch as many fish.

[27:40] And we’ve had a lot of success and it’s like, all right, well we are making chips too. Let’s try to share this success and what better yet, like why don’t we build a whole program around it? So friends with Dave, Dave’s great at messaging. I’ve learned that through, I think it was our shared love of StoryBrand.

David Vuyk: Yeah.

Nick Goellner: That did

David Vuyk: come up at one point.

Nick Goellner: I mean, how did we start talking about like you doing this?

[28:00] David Vuyk: Oh goodness. I. I think I, I reached out to you and I was just interested in helping you on the content strategy with making chips. ’cause I’m just a big fan and have listened to it since the, the early days and then you’re like, oh hey, that’d be great, but we actually have this project we wanna launch.

[28:20] And then you started to tell me a little bit about hire manufacturing leaders.com and we kind of just snowballed from there.

[28:30] Nick Goellner: Yeah. And then it was like, all right, well we read the same books. Yeah. You know, StoryBrand is like a, it’s just a really great concept that I think regardless of whether you’re in marketing, if you are in business and you need to communicate with people, it’s a good concept.

[28:40] David Vuyk: Absolutely. And, and very readable and easy to understand it. It sets a really great foundation.

[28:50] Nick Goellner: So what is it like, just give, let’s give a, what is StoryBrand the really. Basic, you know, one to two minute explanation of what the heck we’re talking about.

David Vuyk: Well, hopefully I get this right and the StoryBrand people don’t come after me.

[29:00] But, uh, basically it’s a very simple seven part framework that helps you distill your core marketing message down in a way that’s just really clear and easy to understand. And so my experience in manufacturing, and perhaps some of you can relate, is that. You’ve got a lot of manufacturing professionals who were great, technically, eventually decided they wanted to start their own business and perhaps struggle a little bit to communicate their story in a compelling way, in a way that would, let’s say, drive sales.

[29:30] Mm-hmm. So a lot of shops, for example, are always trying to compete on, you know, price, quality and lead time, uh, and say, well, that’s what we specialize in. That’s what we bring to the table. And it’s like, well, there’s actually often. When you start asking the right questions, there’s, there’s something there, there’s a niche, there’s something that they do really, really, really well that not a lot of other shops do well.

[30:00] So it’s distilling it down to that and, and helping them understand that the value that they really bring to the market is, is kind of this, I. You know, either this niche industry that they serve or these really challenging material types that they work with, that they’re better at than, than almost anyone else.

[30:10] And, and telling that story in a more compelling way and getting more of that kind of work. You know, one of the things that I know Paul talks a lot about with Pro Shop is understanding which jobs are the winners and which jobs are the losers, and usually mm-hmm. There are some common threads there that are gonna tell you.

[30:30] Hey, you know what? You, you do really good on, on kind of high complexity parts that are made outta 300 series stainless. Like something about that you just, you nail every time. And so if that’s the case and those are the real winners for you in terms of the types of jobs that bring in the most revenue and the highest degree of profitability, then how do we go out finding more of that kind of work and, and maybe failing the jobs mm-hmm.

[30:50] That aren’t profitable? Maybe the ones that are actually losing money. And so for me that starts with a, a clear and compelling brand message. Kill the losers.com. Kill the losers.com. Oh, that’s, that sounds, that could be misunderstood in so many ways. No, Nick, that’s, that will not work. Don’t, don’t use that.

[31:20] Don’t do a domain search on that right now either. So anyways, have a clear and compelling brand message that kind of tells the outside world that, Hey, we’re really good at solving this problem so that you can kind of find more people with that problem and, and help them solve it to, in a way that.

Drives the business forward.

[31:30] Nick Goellner: I think it was cool that you brought up Paul too in Pro Shop as, as you were describing StoryBrand, because one of my favorite things about the concept is like you’re not the hero of the story as the brand who’s trying to sell something. Like, so if you’re pro shop. You’re not the hero of the story.

[31:50] The shop that transformed and killed off the loser work and, and brought in the profitable work and grew their business and, uh, polished up their standards and had more visibility and transparency into the data and all the things that Pro Shop provides. That’s right. They’re the hero of the story. You know, ProShop was there to like kind of help guide them and coach them to customer success, back to the theme of today.

[32:10] And they do such a good job of that. Like Paul does such a great job of that with like Machine Shop Mastery for example. And not that everyone he ha he has on the podcast is a pro shop user, but. Many of them are and

David Vuyk: mm-hmm

Nick Goellner: They’re just telling their own stories of their success and like the challenges they face and how they overcame ’em.

[32:30] And many of them have leaned on Paul as a guide or or pro shop, the whole team as a guide to help ’em get there.

Speaker 8: Right.

[32:40] Nick Goellner: And so like when you’re the Yoda or whatever, not the Luke Skywalker, you know, it’s everyone wants to be the hero in their own story and people want to work with your brand ’cause they feel like you can get ’em there.

David Vuyk: Yeah.

Nick Goellner: Teach the force. You will.

[32:50] David Vuyk: Well, and and so I think as, as a. You gotta remember the customer is the hero, not you. Yeah, you’re the guy, right? You’re Yoda. So the more fanatical you can be about helping them win the day, instead of talking about how awesome you are, which is very much often a temptation.

[33:10] You know, you go to a website and it’s like, Hey, we’re super excellent. We’ve been around for a hundred years. You know, we’re a third generation shop. We’ve got nothing but the best machine tools in the world. You know, you should do business with us in Instead, it’s gotta be more like, Hey, here’s the problem we solve and we’re.

You know, these are the kind of people we work with, and if that’s you, then we want to help you too.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.

[33:30] David Vuyk: So trying to get a bit more focused on that, and there’s a lot of parallels between that whole idea of the customer being the hero and your business being the guide that lends itself to customer success.

[33:40] Just tying it back to the, the theme of what we’re talking about.

[33:50] Nick Goellner: If you’re in a customer service or sales of customer success type role, you should read that book for sure.

David Vuyk: Agreed. Yeah. It’s, uh, it’s definitely one worth having on the shelf. Yeah. In fact. Mine’s right over there and up and to the right.

Not that you can see it. Well,

[34:00] Nick Goellner: I think we learned, uh, early on that this is not a video podcast. It doesn’t matter if my face is pink right now. I thought we were recording video. This is the Lights Out podcast. It’s the lights out. It should just be blank. Black videos just we’re, Hey, we’re really on brand here.

[34:20] Yeah, absolutely. I’m thinking about like, what, back to like the machine shop and what manufacturers do you know and. What you and what Caleb do specifically and how intertwined they can be. So if you look at my shirt, you know, we’ve got these like kinda automation values that we believe in and one of ’em is mixed and another one is coached and another one is automated.

[34:40] And. We’ve talked about all those things, like how important coaching is, how important, like we just talked about, don’t have your one vice doing one job and your machine and fail to utilize the entire envelope. Make sure you’re coaching towards customer success, and I’m thinking of some real practical applications of that just as we’re speaking.

[35:00] So, you know, we would say if you, let’s take a. Horizontal. For example, you got a horizontal machine tool and you’ve got all this real estate on four faces of a cube tombstone, and a lot of people would just do maybe one part on each face or one operation on that tombstone. Instead of thinking like, how much real estate can I utilize and how much can I fill it up with jobs and run a full cycle that includes three or four different jobs on there and or three or four different operations.

[35:40] And maybe it runs for 2, 3, 4, 5 hours instead of, you know, doing four parts, you’re doing eight, 16 parts or four large parts and a bunch of little small parts. You’re just using the real estate. And I think sometimes, Caleb, you tell me how often you guys hear this, but I remember back when I worked more closely with the work holding group, we would hear like, yeah, well now we don’t have the programming for that.

[36:00] Like, you know, we already got our programs dialed in and. It’s just a huge headache for the programmer to set up like that many different jobs in one cycle. It’s like, all right. As a coach for customer success, Caleb could bring up something like, well, here, have you thought about this? This might help you with the programming.

You know, I don’t know, Caleb, what are your thoughts on any of that?

[36:20] Kaleb Mertz: Yeah, no, it’s, it’s exactly right. And I think, uh, what’s funny is. Kind of a way we’re shifting in the work holding group too, is to start asking a lot more. Um, I don’t know. I would say almost questions that you maybe didn’t historically ask as much about, uh, staffing, like the type of roles that they have.

[36:40] Like, because some of these places, you know, that like having a programmer isn’t even a thing, like in, in, in that essence, right? It’s, it’s, you know, they’re doing something at the machine, you know, like. Maybe the complexity isn’t there. Right. So, um, so of course that looks different for how we build out their work holding versus if they have, you know, five full-time programmers on staff doing, you know, five access work or whatever, right?

[37:00] So, um, it, it’s kind of shifted, which is actually very helpful for us. ’cause, you know, we can suggest things, but then also we can kind of adapt to that. ’cause they might say, yes, I want to get as much runtime as I can so my operators can walk away and. You know, load five other machines and then we could give them the most dense fixture that exists between their different ops.

[37:20] But then they’ll come back and be like, well. You know, that isn’t sustainable for these reasons when, you know, we might have that picture of, of what could be Right. Um, so it, it, it’s actually changed the conversation, uh, which is very interesting that like, I, I actually need to get our team more up to speed on the software end of things too, like what the potential is.

[37:40] ’cause sometimes there’s so much low hanging fruit there, just knowing what’s accessible.

[37:50] David Vuyk: Well, and I think like, and that’s where software automation can start to overcome some of the hurdles that keep people from. Working smarter sometimes, which is, and I’m guilty as the, of this, as, as much as anyone else, but it’s like, hey, to figure out how to like maximize productivity on that tombstone, I’ve gotta burn a lot of mental calories to just really think through.

[38:10] I. What that layout needs to be. Whereas, I don’t know, perhaps down the road software kind of solves that problem and it understands what your fixture library is and can help you kind of ideate how to lay those things out. Mm-hmm. Um, and then it’s like, oh, okay, well that makes it easy. Now I’ve got a, a bit of a direction on how to do it.

[38:30] And, and so, you know, it’s, it’s. It’s understanding how software solutions can kind of amplify people’s skillset and experience. ’cause as we alluded to earlier, there’s no replacing that, uh, element of it.

[38:50] Nick Goellner: Yeah. As you guys are talking, I’m just thinking about how important it is to like, be able to walk a mile in the shoes of that business owner you’re helping or that functional leader that you’re helping, or even that frontline leader that you’re working with.

[39:00] And it makes me think about like, we’ll, we’ll be trying to sell. Like automated pallet delivery systems. That’s a big part of what we do. One of the biggest constraints to a customer choosing to buy that and choosing to operate with a lights out mindset or choosing not to is tools. Well, we don’t, we don’t sell tools, we don’t make cutting tools, but we have to think about cutting tools.

[39:20] We have to think about how big that tool magazine is. We have to think about like things that. Aren’t workholding then they’re not automation and they’re not historically what we do well, if we really wanna help that customer be successful, we have to think beyond what we do. And we gotta start thinking like, what are, well, what do they do?

[39:40] And what are their obstacles and what are their constraints? And if we can solve something by just maybe connecting them with somebody who can help or thinking about alternatives that don’t even result in us getting a sale necessarily, but they could be what unlocks the possibility for us to get a sale for us to create.

[40:00] A new lights out customer who’s running unattended. It’s just a different mindset. Like Caleb said, we have to kinda rewire, you know, where you go from like asking application questions to see if your product fits to how can we make it fit, how can, how can we make you successful long term? Sometimes that results in nothing

[40:10] David Vuyk: and realize that that solution might just be different than the way you would normally do it, and that’s okay.

[40:20] And, and that’s, yeah. Objection in and of itself. It’s like, well, we don’t work that way. It’s like, okay, but you could, yeah, maybe it would actually be better. And so, you know, overcoming kind of human resistance to change is, is kind of just this evergreen challenge that that’s, that’s always gonna be there.

I.

[40:40] Nick Goellner: And I think, I mean, we’re all Christian dudes and there’s that, uh, Bible passage where it’s like, Hey, look, if they don’t want to hear the message you’re sharing, like shake the dust off your sandals and just move on. You know, I think as in customer success, it’s really important to define what success looks like maybe a year down the road or what, what’s the long term vision for your company, right?

[41:00] Like, and if they don’t want to change and they don’t want to get there and they’re just calling ’cause they’re curious about the tech, but they don’t actually wanna operate their company. What oftentimes is radically different from how they do it today. There’s plenty of people who do. Mm-hmm. Right? So you’re just wasting your company’s time, you’re wasting their time.

[41:20] You’re not gonna get, you’re not gonna have success with them. So just knock that dust off your sandals and move on to the next town. You know, someone else wants to hear the lights out. Gospel.

[41:30] David Vuyk: There’s a lesson there too, I think, for the technology companies to make their products. Easy to use to make it easy for people to be successful, right?

[41:40] Yeah. I mean, the first time I learned CAD or cam, it felt awkward and uncomfortable and it took many weeks of, you know, continuously learning and figuring it out to get there to a point where I was proficient. So,

Mike Payne: mm-hmm.

[41:50] David Vuyk: New technology feels the same way. It, it feels awkward at first and, you know, as you’ll learn to integrate it with your, your day-to-day operations.

[42:00] And so what can we do as. Product teams in the software space to kind of understand the context of the, of the shop floor so that those software products are easy to use so that they’re intuitive and not confusing so that people are having success with them a lot quicker.

[42:20] Nick Goellner: Yeah. Well, um, to kind of push towards a close here, I think if, if you’re on the user side of the technology and you wanna change your company and whoever you’re dealing with is offering some sort of.

[42:30] Coaching or customer success program. Like I would, I would really look into that, see how legitimate it is, and if, if it’s someone like Dave on the other end of it, take advantage of it, you know? Um, ’cause it’s just gonna help you get what you wanted to get out of the tech. And if, if you’re not thinking about using new technology, probably also not thinking about growing your business or being competitive long term.

[42:50] So. I don’t even know why you’re listening to this podcast, but most of the people who are listening to this podcast are, and I would just say, yeah, like build that in, you know, build that skill into either if you’re on the receiving end, take advantage of it or

Speaker 7: mm-hmm. If

[43:10] Nick Goellner: you’re like us, you know, we’re all solutions providers, technology providers, like KPIs for guys like us would be.

[43:20] Okay. Growth, like sales growth, customer retention, like, so if that’s, if that’s what matters, then invest in customer success. I would argue invest in customer success before and more than you invest in business development or like people to bring in leads. So kind of that’s, that’s the takeaway. Caleb, any takeaways for you?

Yeah,

[43:40] Kaleb Mertz: yeah. I mean, man, there’s, there’s too many to count, but I think it’s, I don’t know what’s, what’s the end? What’s the end goal of your, I. Of your business, right? Uh, what are you, what are you trying to accomplish? And I think, you know, if you step back and, and kinda, you know, I don’t know. For me, for me, a lot of it goes back to what we talked about with, with, you know, the people on the shop floor doing the day to day and, um.

[44:10] You know, I don’t know, like my, my sleepless nights are related to our staff and our, our lead times and our, you know, all, all those kinds of things that all relate together. Right. And so for me it’s more so like, why not test out some of this and take the jump and mm-hmm. And see where it can take you.

[44:20] Because the, even if something were. Half the hype, right? Like 50% better is, is really good in most, in most cases. So, um, I, I think, I think that’s a lot of it too, to, to kinda add to what you said Nick is, is, is why not, and in doing some, I was doing some, uh, research here as we were talking to and just like, you know what the common like internal objections, right?

[44:50] And so, uh. They came up with this nice little list of, of, of things that, you know, you could speak to, to your own personnel internally. And you know, one of ’em says here, wouldn’t it be nice to spend less time babysitting toolpaths and more time solving cool jobs? Like, you know, they framed it really like, just really how it would be or what would it look like if we could quote faster and take on more work and, you know.

Speaker 7: Yeah. And

[45:10] Kaleb Mertz: so how, like, how it elevates your own employees I think has to be such a key focus. Um, and you know, at our companies, we talk about. How, you know, making our customers successful is like our tagline and that’s both internal and external. And sometimes we forget about the internal piece. So, I dunno, I think if you, you sell this more as like a internal thing, right?

How do we make our internal customers successful?

[45:30] Nick Goellner: Yeah, man, I’m so glad you said that. Yeah. Like, so what we mean by internal customers, like whoever’s next in line down the value stream, you know, whoever’s downstream from whatever you do. So, you know, if Caleb is designing an automation solution and it needs to go.

[45:50] So the shop or fixturing solution needs to go to the shop or whatever. Did we provide complete and accurate inputs to the shop? Did we make our customer successful? Well, if we’re adding a new technology and our frontline employees think that it’s there to replace them, and so they, they’re to empower them.

[46:10] Like we didn’t do our part to make them successful. So even, yeah, that like thinking like that, like whoever’s next in line is your customer. Not just the people who buy your products. And if you really think about how do you make them successful long term, then you’ll be like, Dave, you’ll be a a customer success leader.

[46:30] Look at that big smile on the, on the video. We’re not recording. You’re making me blush. What can I say? Now you’re as pink as I now. Now he’s pink. Dave, any, any final uh, takeaways from you?

[46:40] David Vuyk: Yeah, I think the big thing, just building on what you guys have said is sometimes. Investing in software can feel very transactional.

[46:50] It’s like, Hey, pay this invoice and you can use our software for the next 12 months, and then we’ll send you another invoice. Rather than just finding a software vendor, you wanna find a technology partner who mm-hmm. Who can empathize with where you’re at. They understand your pain points. Hopefully, maybe they’ve been there themselves.

[47:10] I know that having kind of some shop floor experience really informs what I do every day, but then also someone who’s, who’s going to really support you in that rollout process so that. You know, your, your team is gonna feel supported, they’re gonna be successful with that product long term, and that there’s the support there to, to make it so, so, yeah, choose your, choose your technology partners wisely.

[47:30] Ask the right questions and connect that to your overall business objectives.

[47:40] Nick Goellner: Yeah, so as you brought that up, I just remembered what I did all day yesterday. So, uh, Bryce Barnes, who gave the keynote speech at the manufacturing meeting, did a great podcast with us. If, if you guys wanna check it out, he’s a manufacturing AI specialist.

[47:50] A background where he used to work for Microsoft and he said they almost intentionally don’t go as far as to like. Roll out the solution to manufacturers and make sure it works. They just wanna create the tech and like give it to other people to do that. And he wants to come at it from a different angle, from the manufacturing side, using tech, not from the tech side.

[48:10] Creating something very horizontal for manufacturers to access. And I think he’s spot on. I think that’s what it’s gonna take to really make it work. Because any of these Google or Amazon or Meta or any of these giant companies, if they really wanted to make an incredible solution for manufacturers, they have the knowledge and the resources they could, but what they do is they’ll just be like, oh, here’s.

[48:30] You know, whatever Cloud X, Y, Z for manufacturers, we created it. And it’s like, yeah, but you didn’t, you didn’t dive deep enough to guarantee customer success. And I think part of that is that’s a business model decision. Like what type of customer relationship do you want to have? If it’s really transactional and you’re just trying to like have.

[48:50] I IP and tech that you’re white labeling to other people to do it well then maybe that’s the right decision for you, but

Speaker 7: mm-hmm.

[49:00] Nick Goellner: Or for, for that type of business. But for, I think in our world and what we’re really focused on, it seems like that’s what you’re really focused on too. Dave is like almost a personal trade, trainer level customer relationship, like you’re.

[49:20] We’re not just gonna sell you the thing and be like, see the tech works. Bye. We’re gonna sell it to you. And then like meet on a consistent basis and understand each other’s goals and be like, Hey, what, what are you loving about it? What are you hating about it? And then like, take that feedback loop and use it to make the product better for the next one.

[49:40] That’s what I get excited about. That’s what makes me so pumped about like where manufacturing tech is, is ’cause of people like that. Not because there’s some. Tech that’s available under license that hopefully somebody utilizes

[49:50] David Vuyk: on top of being like the right thing to do. It results in better development of the technology over time and and retention of those customers over time.

Yeah. Right. So there there’s a lot of reasons to, to do it that way. A lot of good reasons.

[50:00] Nick Goellner: So, Dave, you mentioned, you reached out to me at first about like helping with the content strategy with making chips. I had you basically be the main driver behind higher mfg leaders.com, so thank you for that. And I think Caleb and I could use some help hosting this podcast.

[50:20] So this is your formal while we record invitation to co-host lights out with us. ’cause you know this space, you, you bring great guests, you provide great insight and I could use some help.

[50:30] David Vuyk: Awesome. Well, I. I’ll think about it. I’m just kidding. I’m, I’m down.

Nick Goellner: No, it’s

David Vuyk: like

Nick Goellner: that public proposal thing where they like do it at a sporting event and then the girl’s like, no, the guy just have to sit there.

[50:40] It’s like, I’m the jumbotron.

[50:50] David Vuyk: Uh, awesome. I’m looking forward to that. And I, I, uh, yeah, I just, I think it’s a, a great way to kind of educate and enlighten folks about. All the different options out there when it comes to shop floor technology and kind of pursuing that path of, of lights out automation. You know, I think it’s something that everyone’s super excited about, but not always sure kind of how to take those first steps forward.

[51:10] So yeah, delighted to, to be a part of that conversation.

[51:20] Nick Goellner: Yeah. I, our previous guest, Ryan Bele, he had. I just like almost want it to be the sign off tagline for the show. But they have this philosophy where if you can run lights out, you must run lights out. And I think that’s how every shop should think.

David Vuyk: Agreed.

[51:30] Nick Goellner: So with that, let’s turn the lights off on the episode and I. See you later guys. Thanks guys. See ya.

[51:40] Hey guys, it’s Nick and I’m so excited about Machine Shop Mastery being part of making chips. So my good friend Paul Van Mader, he’s been a partner. He’s been a sponsor, he’s been a friend and he’s been involved with making chips for a long time. And now his podcast that I love is part of our group.

[52:00] Here’s why you should listen to it, Paul. It doesn’t just run a software ERP company for machine shop leaders. Paul was a machine shop leader. He loves machine shop leaders. He’s the one leading the charge to thank all the machinists out there for all the incredible work they do and the. Best thing about ’em is he actually knows how to make their incredible work turn into an incredible business.

[52:20] So when you listen to Machine Shop Mastery, you’re gonna hear Paul and his guests talk about exactly what they’ve done to overcome their challenges and make their business successful. You’re gonna get those kinda like heart wrenching stories that tell you what people have been through, things that you can empathize with because you’re a manufacturing leader too.

[52:40] So check out Machine Shop Mastery and learn how to master your machine shop. Hosted by my good friend Paul Van Mader, under the Making Chips Network. Thanks.